72 Arctic Cat Panther 440...this is getting ridiculous - Snowmobile Forum: Your #1 Snowmobile Forum

pantherpride · 12-23-2011, 03:06 PM

Hi all. I have a 72 Panther that sat idle for about four years. I've been rebuilding everything from the ground up for a couple months (suspension, drive shaft, etc.) but cannot get her to run. It has the T1A 440 Kawasaki. I had a Walbro WF-1B carb on the machine so I started my troubleshooting by rebuilding it. I could get it to spit and sputter for about five seconds but it wouldn't stay running. After reading numerous posts about how crappy the Walbros are (and difficult to tune), I decided to take an old Tillotson HD87A I had laying around and rebuild IT. Same exact problem...she'll pop a few times but never fully start. In the case of both carbs, unburned fuel would eventually come out of the exhaust, so I know it's getting fuel. I pulled the plugs and did a compression test Each cylinder shows 145-150 psi. That seems good to me, but what do I know. Both plugs appear to spark fine, but all I can go by is the color (it's blue, not yellow or white). I have an engine rebuild kit on the way because that's about all that's left, but I'm grasping at straws now (I've heard about a common center seal issue with this motor that might not show itself on a cylinder compression test). Any ideas? Not enough snow yet but it's coming and I'm trying like heck to be ready. Thanks in advance.

**RJ Gleason** · 12-23-2011, 03:47 PM

That is correct, only a leak down test will show it for sure.
The good news is that the replacement does not require the crank to be split.
It is a 2 part affair with O-rings for easy replacement.

The only other thing I can think of would be piston skirt breakage.
You will still have good compression, but it will not start or run.

pantherpride · 12-23-2011, 04:11 PM

Thanks for the insight RJG. I suppose it's due for a rebuild anyway, regardless of the problem. That would let me inspect the piston skirt, too. If I rebuild this engine and it still doesn't start, I'm gonna find a hold in the ice to push it through. I'll keep you posted...

BTW RJG, I've been reading your posts for a few years and have much respect for your old sled knowledge. Your responses on other posts have saved me many headaches.

**RJ Gleason** · 12-25-2011, 07:03 AM

You can inspect the piston skirts through the exhaust ports before any disassembly.

bradbeer · 12-26-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantherpride

I have an engine rebuild kit on the way because that's about all that's left, but I'm grasping at straws now.

Don't forget points and condensers. My 440 rebuild project was dismal until I replaced them!

Brad

pantherpride · 12-26-2011, 04:47 PM

That’s exactly where I’m at now. I just popped the flywheel off…

I posted some pix to show you what I’m finding as I dig. The pistons are intact but I need to clean them up. Any suggestions for best method to remove carbon buildup? The cylinders look pretty good. The walls are shiny with just minor flaws. However, I have a concern with the PTO side jug. I posted a close-up pic of that cylinder near the intake port. I see 2-3 small areas that look like chrome is coming off(?). Should I be concerned or should I just slap on the new rings and call it good?

98yota · 12-26-2011, 05:00 PM

Agree with bradbeer, I always check the simple things first to avoid tearing the motor down just find something like the points is the culprit. I hate that feeling when you relize it was something simple after you looked for hours. This spring I put together a 1989 Yamaha Wavejammer 500 from the ground up. Everything was where it belonged and and looked great. Go to start it and no spark! Checked everything (plugs, wires, all connections looked good.) I decided to pull out and inspect the electrical box (which is a royal pain in the butt to take out,) after finding nothing out of place, I glanced up at the handle bars and relized the kill switch lanyard was not in place. In the words of Homer Simpson "DOHHHHH!!!!" lanyard in, engine runs! I was releaved that it ran, but a little embarrassed I didn't catch my mistake.

**RJ Gleason** · 12-26-2011, 08:50 PM

BrakeKleen and a scrubbie pad will clean the pistons up.
I would replace that one cylinder as I see checking in the chrome above the port that will flake off and loose you compression later on.
If it has pits, it will flake off.

You could slap it together and run it, if you so choose, but I would be on the lookout for another cylinder to have on hand when it does start to flake.

bradbeer · 12-26-2011, 09:51 PM

I wish you good luck in your venture to find a 440 pto side cylinder in good condition for a good price. I have some 399 stuff if you need some!

Brad.

pantherpride · 12-27-2011, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the input. Since the compression is pretty good, I’ll probably run it this way for this year and try and find a new cylinder before next season.

I’m really struggling to identify the correct points and condensers to order for this beast. Here’s the deal…this motor was in a 72 Panther parts sled I bought a few years ago. I put the motor in MY 72 panther and had it running for 2 seasons. However, I don’t even know for sure this is a 72 motor (I have my suspicions it’s a 73), let alone what model it was originally in. As I research, it looks like the points and condensers varied from Panther to Puma to Cheetah, etc…even if they all had the T1A 440. I posted a better pic of the assembly in case someone out there much smarter than I can help me ID. I also posted a pic of the external coils to better illustrate my setup.

Parts Unlimited shows a different condenser from 72 to 73 for the twin Kawasaki and shows no points at all for anything newer than 72. Parts Reloaded shows 3 options for the Kawasaki replacement points (none of which look identical to mine) but I don’t know the OEM number to cross-reference. Ugh.

Oh, yeah, I’m also trying to find a new center seal and having no luck. Is it true that this style of seal does not go bad (because it’s a non-contact seal) and I could get away with just changing the O-rings? Still gotta find those, too.

As always, many thanks.

Invader440 · 12-27-2011, 02:39 PM

71-72 points are the same and 73 are different. Panther/Puma/Cheetah all used the same set of points for the various years. From the pictures you posted, you have a 71 or 72 engine based on the single exciting coil (73 had 2 exciting coils). MFG Supply has the points under part number 01-021 oem part number is 3000-182. Condenser is MFG Supply part number 01-039 oem 3000-186. As far as the center seal, if it's the 2 piece one then just change the O rings.

pantherpride · 12-27-2011, 03:07 PM

Very helpful Invader. I'll order those today. They must have altered the design of the points once they reached the aftermarket world since they look a little different than what I have (the c-clip area is recessed in the MFG Supply pic, mine is flat). I looked at the coil designs for the 72 and 73 on Browns Leisure World and Alpha Sports and see what you mean. Looks like the 73 has 2 exciting coils sandwiched together. It's this kind of brilliant insight that keeps me coming back to this site!

**RJ Gleason** · 12-28-2011, 12:50 PM

Check Parts Unlimited , they usually have those hard to find parts for the older engines.

You should be able to order through any small engine or cycle shop too.

pantherpride · 01-07-2012, 07:58 PM

Back at it now that the holidays are over. Between Parts Unlimited and Parts Reloaded (I highly recommend), I have everything I need to put this baby back together. I have a question about the new needle bearings I ordered (see pix). As you'll see, the rollers on the original bearings (rear) are the same length as the width of the connecting rod. The new bearings (front) have shorter rollers. Other than that, the cage itself is the same overall length/diameter size as the original and it fits fine. Am I ok to use the new ones? Seems odd and I'm tempted to throw the old bearings back in.

Yamaha440 · 01-08-2012, 03:08 AM

I don't think that'll pose a problem. I have needle bearings in my Yamaha that look just like that, and I bought them from Yamaha! I think that having a thicker outer cage might make them stronger. They should be fine if they fit and roll properly.

pantherpride · 01-08-2012, 04:31 PM

Yamaha440, are you saying your newer bearing rollers are shorter than the width of your connecting rod? That's my concern...that the rollers will eventually try to groove the rods. I have to believe, though, that the rods are hard enough to keep that from happening. I'm going to go for it and hope for the best.

Have you run it this way for awhile?

**RJ Gleason** · 01-08-2012, 05:18 PM

The newer version is more durable than the original, the wider bearing collar stands up better than the narrow ones did.

Yamaha440 · 01-08-2012, 05:35 PM

Yes, exactly. As a matter of fact, they were like that in '79 on my machine.

pantherpride · 01-08-2012, 06:18 PM

All good things to hear since I just torqued the heads. I get nervous when parts don't look the same, you know? I hope this thing runs as good as it looks

I'll keep you posted...

pantherpride · 01-09-2012, 09:47 PM

So did I ever tell you guys that everything electrical is my weakness? Somehow I screwed up the ignition. Got everything back together and I have spark on the PTO side, not on mag side. Before the teardown I had spark on both sides. I followed RJ's advice from another post as I disassembled...mark the points to the plate and the plate to block. Plate to the block was easy enough but the points to the plate a little trickier, especially since the new points look slightly different. The problem could also be my novice solder job on the new condensers. Who knows, maybe I loosened a connection between the external and internal coils during the rebuild.

First, is there a way to set the point gap by removing the the cam from the flywheel, sliding it onto the crank and using it for a visual? Second, how do I identify which point/condenser is for the mag side?

And here I thought I was close...