This is my newbie question. There are many like it, but this one is mine - Snowmobile Forum: Your #1 Snowmobile Forum

Pistol_Pete · 01-18-2013, 04:38 PM

So, i appreciate everyone on here schooling this newbie idiot on the basics of sleds. I have been learning alot more than i wanted to when i was given this sled, figuring just a little tuneup would get her going....ha, so cute when i am unaware of reality....
have been screwing around with the carb and chain case of this 93 indy classic 500 (that sat for two years unattended although covered and in fairly good shape when she was put away) and starting to get things going.
Have been reading up on clutches as mine is acting funny.

Question 1 - when my shop manual describes operating RPM as 7800, what does that mean? Is it saying my clutches will engage at that rpm??

Question 2 - mr manual describes the primary clutch spring as being "gold". I am alot of things, but colorblind is not one of them. I see a "blue" spring. Please interpret what this spring is in compared to a gold one.

Now, after those above questions are answered, i give it gas and not moving forward (except in my head as i dream of cruising the back forest...)
Track spins freely when up and moves the chaincase gears as it does, both clutches spinning freely. Wth gas, the belt is spinning both but clutches dont seem to move. I have gassed to 8000 rpm's with nothing.
Question for cleaning..... I can get down and put my 220 pounds against the primary and she budges a quarter of an inch or so. Cleaned the rollers with brake clean, gave her a few whacks with a rubber mallet, bathed her again and will let her sit then put some compressed air through it all.....is this even right? Does it need lube afterwards or just stays dry?
Anything else i need to do? What about the secondary clutch?

Yeah, i could search and read and i did, but wanted my own post on here so i can feel like i have something else on the internet....i am so vain and important to the world (at least thats what my mom told me)

ringneckryan · 01-18-2013, 04:58 PM

I am a newbie too Pete. When these guys start harpin about cleaning things they dont mean spray brake kleen on it and blow it off. They mean take clutches apart 100% and clean very thruoghly. No lube is required from what I know for clutches. You will need to buy a clutch puller for your sled. Pull the clutch off and take it apart on the bench and take scotch bright and brake kleen and polish that baby up until it SHINES. Factory new shine is what your after. I would bet that 7800 rpm is your top speed/redline. When your flat out your skidoo should never exceed that. I would make an educated guess that your sled should start to move about 3000 rpm. something like that. I have noticed a lot of polaris sleds come factory with gold springs but many people end up putting blue in. I dont know why. Mine came with a blue spring and it should have gold.

If you can rev your sled up to 8000 rpm and you get nothing you must have a problem in your chaincase. Maybe there is a gear missing or perhaps a broken chain. Take it apart and have a look and as always - CLEAN THUROGHLY! Brake kleen and compressed air. Go but a case of that brake kleen right now cause youll need it!

When you take your clutch apart look for flat spots in the weights (hockey stick blade lookin things, there is 3 of them). There is also little tiny rollers in there somewhere too. Make sure they turn easy and freely. Your 220lbs and a 6ft prybar proly wont be enough to move that clutch all the way in either. If you do get it to mave that far you dont wanna be sticking your fingers in there either cleaning stuff. Just take it off and take it apart and do it the safe way and the proper way. It is extra work but well worth it.

Good luck man! And read the moderaters posts closley, they hate repeating themselves and whatever they say read it a few times and make sure you understand. Also look to youtube. That is a good visual way to see things in action!

Ultrafrozen · 01-18-2013, 06:38 PM

Your primary clutch might have seized in place. Like Ryan said, take it apart and see what the problem is or take it for servicing. If the secondary was seized, you would be burning the belt.

Pistol_Pete · 01-18-2013, 10:45 PM

Oh, alrighty. Was hoping it was another easy fix but i suppose it is never that easy....I know the chain case is good cuz just rebuilt and dealt with that whole thing.

So, is the operating RPM considered the max as stated above?

**BC_Dan** · 01-18-2013, 11:58 PM

The operating RPM is the RPM where the engine makes the most torque/power. Going past that is very possible, but a 2-stroke engine loses power big time when revved past that point, so there's no real benefit.

Engagement RPM should be about 4000. Engagement is set by the pressure of the primary spring. The clutch has to spin fast enough that the centrifugal force of the weights overcome the pressure of the spring so the weights can move the movable sheave. Max. RPM is set by the weights. Heavier weights will lower RPM, lighter weights will raise it.

If the main bushing in the primary is corroded and won't let the sheave move, the clutch can't grab the belt, no matter what the RPM. Same would be true for weights that are stuck; if they can't move, they can't act as a lever on the movable sheave.

As was mentioned earlier, removing the primary and taking the cover plate off and removing the spring will allow you to see if the main bushing is allowing smooth operation of the movable sheave. You can also check the weights to make sure they pivot easily on their pins. If all is ok there, it's time to look further at the chaincase and drivetrain, as was mentioned by ringneckryan.

Ultrafrozen · 01-19-2013, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC_Dan

...If all is ok there, it's time to look further at the chaincase and drivetrain, as was mentioned by ringneckryan.

I don't think it is the drivetrain as Pete said the track turns with the back off the ground. Does the secondary clutch move when you turn the track or vice versa. If yes then drivetrain is OK.

Pistol_Pete · 01-19-2013, 09:16 AM

BcDan - Thanks for the clarification on the operating rpm.

And yes, track moves when off the ground and it moves the chain when track moves, also moves the secondary. The history was a busted gear so with the help of meburdick(?) here on this site, the chaincase was dealt with and that is fine. Wen she fired and revved, i could observe the primary moving and not engaging. Belt is turning, secondary is turning, chain is turning. I want to believe it is as i was researching and confirmed from all of above as the primary sticking....was just hoping i was wrong?.....will get the primary off and cleaned.

One more question about this type of drive on the final end if i may -
If the motor is turning and the primary is turning at a low rpm which is turning the belt which is turning the secondary which is turning (albeit slowly and without much power) the gear which is turning the chain...., where is that rotational power going as the final track is not turning? Is there some sort of torque converter type thing or slip diff type set up after the case but before the track?

**BC_Dan** · 01-19-2013, 10:00 AM

The only slip in the system is the slip of the belt on the sheaves of the clutches. If the clutches are gripping, the drivetrain should turn.

From what you are describing, it sounds like you are on the right track with removing the clutch and cleaning it. Scrub the edges of the belt as well. You don't want a polished look to the sheave faces; a rough surface grips better and will slip less. I use green scotchbrite pads on the sheave surfaces, some people will even use 100 grit sandpaper.

Pistol_Pete · 01-19-2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC_Dan

The only slip in the system is the slip of the belt on the sheaves of the clutches. If the clutches are gripping, the drivetrain should turn.
.

So in theory then, at idle and at rest -
The primary should turn
The secondary should not
The belt should not
?

So, what if i see at idle the primary turning, the new belt lightly turning, the secondary lightly turning? And i know the chain is intact and gears are turning?
Did i miss something here?
I assume the gear is attached to a shaft of some sort which drives the track? Do i need to also turn attention to further down the drivetrain from the chain case?
I could have sworn she was turning the secondary when i had it up a few days ago but maybe i am dreaming....I will recheck spinning the tracks and look at the chain case while its spinning

Outlander33 · 01-19-2013, 12:17 PM

you're correct that at rest the primary should turn, belt and secondary should not.

If it is then something is funky.. Are you absolutely sure you have the right belt on there? I inharited a '97 and when I got it running it was kinda acting like you described, come to find out the belt was wrong, to small, and even at idle is was gripping and walking the sled out of the shop, although slowly thank goodness.

Just a thought, but sounds like you need to clean your primary as stated above lol.

**BC_Dan** · 01-19-2013, 12:34 PM

If it's on a stand and the belt is on the tight side of specs, the friction from the primary can move the track a little. That's pretty normal. If the sled moves forward on it's own when idling, the belt is too tight or the primary isn't letting go of the belt. A dirty/corroded clutch and worn rollers ate the two most common things that can allow that to happen. If that happens, you usually can't pull start the engine because there's too much drag on the belt, which tries to move the sled as you pull the rope.

Pistol_Pete · 01-19-2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlander33

Just a thought, but sounds like you need to clean your primary as stated above lol.

huh? Clean the primary? Whats that? ...... Ha ha....

Hmmm....so the belt was a polaris direct replacement for the model, brand new. I can see it just starting to grab the sides and assumed that it was just the friction of the belt on the primary just starting to turn it. When i rev it, the speed of the belt and secondary seem to remain fairly constant. So i will assume it is tightness of a new belt and the laws of physics... But now i am a little perplexed as to why the secondary continues to turn with the sled on the ground.
I can still pull start it without difficulty with all the weight on the sled on the ground.

Have to go to work the rest of the day but may get to inspect it further between games tomorrow...

So here is what i plan to check:
With track off the ground, spin the track and check, again, if the gears/chain are moving and if the secondary is spinning
Also pull/clean the primary as i believe that was mentioned....

Ultrafrozen · 01-19-2013, 03:36 PM

Your problem may be two fold. From what you have described, the primary clutch AND the secondary clutch rotate but the track does not. Normally, as soon as you rotate the secondary clutch, the track will also turn. I think you are missing something somewhere. If you turn the secondary clutch and the brake disc doesn't turn then the key on the secondary clutch's shaft has sheared. Easy to verify, take the bolt out and pull the secondary clutch off the shaft to see if the key is still in the keyway.
You may still have a seized primary clutch if you don't see the clutch sheave moving in and out when you rev the engine. It would also move the secondary clutch's movable sheave in and out as well to a different diameter. It looks like the belt moves in and out, Primary moves opposite from the Secondary.

Pistol_Pete · 01-19-2013, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultrafrozen

Your problem may be two fold. From what you have described, the primary clutch AND the secondary clutch rotate but the track does not. Normally, as soon as you rotate the secondary clutch, the track will also turn. I think you are missing something somewhere. If you turn the secondary clutch and the brake disc doesn't turn then the key on the secondary clutch's shaft has sheared. Easy to verify, take the bolt out and pull the secondary clutch off the shaft to see if the key is still in the keyway.
You may still have a seized primary clutch if you don't see the clutch sheave moving in and out when you rev the engine. It would also move the secondary clutch's movable sheave in and out as well to a different diameter. It looks like the belt moves in and out, Primary moves opposite from the Secondary.

So, didnt mention this part and you just reminded me.
When the sled was idling and both clutches rotating, i noticed the disc rotating as well because it started with the brake on and when i took the brake off, noticed the secondary start to roll and the disc rolling as well.

And yep, that primary not moving with revving and needs to be dealt with.
But the secondary wont move just based on rpm's of the engine if the primary isnt doing anything, right? So, must be that primary on THAT end of things.

So, ,without looking at the diagrams on my manual, where could things go wrong between the drive chain and gear and the final track drive?

Ultrafrozen · 01-19-2013, 08:48 PM

So, if I understand correctly, the jackshaft (secondary clutch at one end, brake disc at the other) turns but the track doesn't. You rebuilt the chaincase and I assume both sprockets have a splined hub and not a key and keyway. Splines don't fall out or shear easily like a key. The chain was actually re-installed and the chain tensioner was tightened finger tight and backed-off 1/4 turn. If all this is true then the problem lies with the reverse gear (if you have it) or between the track drive shaft and the track drive sprokets.

Make sure you check the rotation of the brake disc with the track on the ground. If you checked it with the track off the ground, there could be enough friction from the sheared key to still turn the jackshaft with the track off the ground but not enough when you hold the brake or with the track on the ground.

**BC_Dan** · 01-19-2013, 11:06 PM

Does the sled have mechanical reverse?

Pistol_Pete · 01-19-2013, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC_Dan

Does the sled have mechanical reverse?

Why yes, it does.
In fact this was the original problem.
The reverse gear was apparently engaged and shattered the pinion gear above it. Hence the chain case redo.
That was what was tackled last month, that and getting the engine to stay lit.

Could i have missed something with the chain case getting put back together?

Pistol_Pete · 01-19-2013, 11:44 PM

Here is the inners of the chain case after being fixed and just before the cover went back on...http://www.snowmobileforum.com/attac...-photo1173.jpg

**BC_Dan** · 01-19-2013, 11:57 PM

Prop the back of the sled up. Remove the belt. Rotate the secondary by hand. That will tell you if the mechanicals are working in the chaincase. Engage the reverse gear. The track should turn the other way.

Take a black felt marker and mark a couple of lines on the primary from the center to the edge. When you run the sled, the marks will rub off where the belt hits them, indicating if you are getting any shifting in the primary.

Josh Kidner · 01-20-2013, 09:21 AM

Last resort quick check to see if primary is engaging, rev it up (not much past engagement rpm) without the belt on, watch it and see if it moves. DO NOT go much past that. You could get it stuck at full engagement. Thats not good!