Ice Nitrous Systems - Page 2 - Snowmobile Forum: Your #1 Snowmobile Forum

skidoo_magoo · 02-13-2005, 09:37 AM

well, the psi could cause friction (parts spinning-- faster it's going the more friction there is, and more psi = it spinning faster, correct?), which produces heat. a standard turbo for a sled has what? 8 psi?

BLinindoll · 02-13-2005, 01:39 PM

oh im not sure about the psi for a sled. like i said, im not an expert on turbos, but it just seems to me that it still wouldnt be enough to explain the amount of heat. im still gonna stick with the exhaust gasses being the culprit. is anyone else reading this thread? SEG? have an idea maybe? even anyone thats just into car or truck turbos.... same idea. maybe were just in the wrong section.... ill try getting an answer in another section.

ICE NITROUS · 02-13-2005, 01:46 PM

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but your are wrong.The air tank theory has nothing to do with compressing the air.a turbo continually compresses the air unlike your air tank.If you have ever felt a air compressor work IT GETS HOT!And if im not mistaken there are no exhaust going through it!Thats y they have oil to cool it.And on the other hand the air compressor stops when its at a predetermind psi.the turbo keeps compressing.

BLinindoll · 02-13-2005, 01:58 PM

wow, chill out man.... were just tryin to get to the bottom of this... no need to blow up.

i see your point about my idea. i did fail to remember that the compressor motor doesnt come near to how much air a turbo produces (or am i thinking of a blower type supercharger... anyway,) BUT, i still dont think it contributes more heat than the exhaust does. again, MAYBE IM WRONG, MAYBE YOUR RIGHT, but im gonna do some more research before i make a conclusion.

BLinindoll · 02-13-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote from smallengineguy....

"It's the heat of the exhaust that makes it get so hot. There is one shaft in a turbo with an impeller on each end in separate chambers. The exhaust gas drives the turbineof the turbo to pull the intake charge through the compressor on the other side. THe 1000+ degree exhaust temp going through it is what requires turbo impellers to be made of ceramic and the bearings to be oil cooled."

think what you want, but ill go with what i originally thought (and what SEG knows.)

**smallengineguy** · 02-13-2005, 04:49 PM

Just past experience with turbos. I had a Buick 3.8 Turbo engine in my 78 Regal, and my cousin has a built out intercooled Buick Grand National. Learn a lot wrenching on them....That's why they intercooled them, to try to eliminate some of the heat transfer to the intake air before it went into the engine.

skidoo_magoo · 02-13-2005, 04:52 PM

i really wasnt sure, i was just figuring out how his theory would work. i have no experience with turbos...i wake up everyday wanting to see a wrx 22B in my driveway, but it's never there. of course, i could buy the one in ireland for sale....it's only like 150 grand. then, i will know more about turbos.

oneloud700 · 02-13-2005, 08:50 PM

Turbos are easy guys. Here's how they work. Turbos pull in air from the intake. Buy using an impeller from the exhaust flow, it turns the turbo which is on the intake. Now becuase of the heat that compressed air makes, along with some of the heat that comes from the exhaust as previously mentioned, an intercooler is an excellent way to disperse the heat and cool down the air. And cold air as we all know it, is better for your machine, as well as the space issue. Now as for intercoolers on a snowmobile, all the Bender Turbo Kits come with intercoolers. With out them, your engine would melt down or seize becuase of the heat. They're quite simple once you read up on a turbo a little bit. Look up Ford's new 6.0L. They've actually developed a turbo that will hold the same amount of PSI through out the whole RPM range by putting rollers on the turbo. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm I'm not trying to offend anyone, so here's a page that will tell you all about them. It's easy, and now we don't all have to be a**holes to each other haha. Let's all get a long guys, we're all in the same sport together here.

oneloud700 · 02-13-2005, 08:54 PM

And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the Suburu WRX STi S202 in my yard tomorrow, which would help me get an even better understanding of them. Anyone who would like to give a donation or donate a car to me would be lovely

Anyways, once you read that article, you'll see why turbos are so expensive, because they are so self efficiant, and unlike a supercharger, which doesn't rob much, but does a little, uses absolutely no power from the motor, much more making more, and using a continuous power cycle.

ICE NITROUS · 02-14-2005, 12:21 AM

thank you oneloud700.Other than the heat would melt the engine down your right.Aerocharger has been building them for sleds as long as the ideas been out there,but they dont use an intercooler because in reality an intercooler only reduces the intake charge temp by at most 15 degrees F.I will tell everyone on here as soon as mines complete exactly what the intake temps are with out an intercooler first and then with if i find that i need one.

BLinindoll · 02-20-2005, 02:30 AM

right, it definitely wouldn't melt the engine down. it doesn't raise the intake temp THAT much, although enough to decrease the amount of air being packed into the engine. thats why intercoolers are not a must, just a good touch.

by the way... compressors get hot due to the friction between the cylinder wall and the piston, not the air being compressed. if it were caused by the compression, the tank would be hot also, not just the compressor. not to get started on a whole nother topic, but if i say something, its because i know it's a fact unless i specificly say im not sure. if you don't agree, than research is somewhere first before jumping in. (you can learn a lot by doing a google search, you just need to learn how to weed out the bogus information.) im not saying i know everything or im always right, just saying what i say is not a guess, its a fact, unless otherwise specified. i dont mean to sound like a dic, just dont know how else to word it.

ICE NITROUS · 02-21-2005, 11:12 AM

there is some heat caused by friction but the majority is caused by compressing.ex:diesel engine doesnt run hot by friction at all,and diesel isnt flamable for the most part until air is so tightly compressed and hot then diesel is injected and there is a controlled explosion.not from the heat the cylinder wall to piston.its the compressed air.just an example of a similair instance of compressing making hot air.I have some idea since im a shop owner/ASE Master cert mechanic.That is unless all the cars and trucks i fix are by pure luck,(kinda dought it after this many years)

Fastcat · 02-21-2005, 11:48 AM

Compressing air causes heat-- a lot of heat!! Compressed air from a turbo should be cooled because cooler air is more dense.
Dense air = more HP. Any first year apprentice mechanic or a grade school science teacher will tell you the same thing.
Good luck with the project Ice Nitrous.
And yes it is the heat generated from compressed air that ignites the fuel in a diesel engine
And your air compressor tank doesnt get hot because, the air is cooled before it enters the tank.Check for cooling fins on the pipe going into the tank. any good large shop compressor will have them.
End of compressed air class 101
Oh ya.... I have been a licenced mechanic for more than 28 years... I not only know how turbos work.. I rebuild them.

ICE NITROUS · 02-22-2005, 12:13 AM

PRAISE FASTCAT!!!Finally someone who also knows what their talking about.no offence to everyone else.its just there are a lot of miss conceptions especially on the big name power adders (turbo,nitrous,superchargers,etc.)And thats only because of problems people have had and they are not man or woman enough to accept their misstakes, or they honestly dont know how or why their application failed and they may not even have the availability to figure the problem out.I do thank everyone for their input be it right or wrong in my eyes.

BLinindoll · 02-22-2005, 02:25 PM

were only talking 8 psi for a turbo! a diesel is what? thousands of pounds??? they run like 30:1 compression... duh, yeah, that would cause lots of heat... not 8psi... ASE doesnt mean jack... its only a test. i've seen some idiots that dont know jack about automotives that are ASE certified. I've also seen some idiot mechanics (who were seasoned in their field.) And no, I'm not calling you an idiot. but think about it... am i wrong by saying turbos produce 8psi higher than atmospheric pressure? (atmospheric pressure is 14psi right there.) I've got 60psi in my truck tire in my driveway. That didnt get hot when I filled it. 8psi wont get hot.

and no... most small compressors dont have heat baffles. the larger ones do because the friction is that much more. smaller ones dont need them because they dont produce as much heat because they are smaller... EVEN THOUGH they produce almost the same psi. 8psi... thats all were talking about... I CAN BLOW UP A BALLOON BY MOUNTH WITH 8PSI!! I'm sorry, but I don't ever remember burning my mouth.

Fastcat · 02-22-2005, 11:11 PM

Blinindoll. You go ahead and believe whatever the f---- you want there young feller. I know that as air is compressed it heats up. Sound like the only hot air you know is what comes out of your mouth. At least you try to blow up baloons with it and I guess thats a good thing for the kids. Its a wonder how people with mentality like yours even get through life!!
Have a nice day!!

ICE NITROUS · 02-23-2005, 02:24 PM

I like Fastcat and his attitude!some people are impossible to relay info and understand one concept that is relativly easy. Heres another one for the mindless- on how a turbo operates,
turbos turn by the expansion of heat as it goes by the turbo exhaust impeller and NOT THE SPEED OF THE EXHAUST GOING BY(UNLESS SOMEONE HAS EVER SEEN EXHAUST MOVING AT ABOUT 150,000RPM'S). Just another tid bit of info of no relation but fact.

I would like to see blindhole's ASE test scores.The people that say they are worthless and easy are the ones that cant pass them to save their life!( and dont understand automotive applications or theories such as this turbo,which would be a ASE test question).

P.S. any one on the internet that says how a turbo works other than what we have said for the most part is not talking about the turbo in an auto application but THEIR RAZOR BLADE OR SOME OTHER DUMB A** THING THAT SOMEONE ADDED THE NAME IN BY FOR MARKETING REASONS.

BLinindoll · 02-23-2005, 03:19 PM

i don't just make this stuff up dude, i find out from other sources. Today I asked my professor about the question at hand. He, by the way, has been a mechanic for about 40 years, owns his own personal 3 bay garage and machine shop, was an inspector for Nascar for 2 years, and owns and works on many of his own high performance cars (including an ORIGINAL Shelby Cobra which he is restoring and rebuilding himself, a $300,000 car.) Point being, he knows what hes talking about, and if you don't think he does, there is something wrong with you. I asked him where the heat comes from a turbo. He said the EXACT thing that I have been saying. Heat comes from the exhaust. And you ARE right Fastcat... Heat is generated by compressing air, but not that much heat is made from compressing the air to 8PSI. I don't want to argue anymore. Believe what you want, but I'll go with the professor with a backround like his.

sesnopro · 02-23-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BLinindoll
Heat comes from the exhaust. And you ARE right Fastcat... Heat is generated by compressing air, but not that much heat is made from compressing the air to 8PSI.

I am pretty sure that the professor is right. think about a desiel engine they compress the air to fire and the exhaust is still way cooler than a regular gas motor.

ICE NITROUS · 02-23-2005, 08:31 PM

Interesting professor.(think id drop intro to bull sh** or what ever he teaches).Any way thats weird how the intake air gets hot because of the turbo having exhaust flow through it and it radiates that much heat through to the intake side.(mind you its oil and antifreeze cooled(housing))
My 8-71 gets very hot air in the intake manifold with 5psi of boost and its a supercharger with no exhaust within at least 18". so hot in fact that it makes the supercharger grow(heat expand) about 1/2 of an inch.Another weird fact is that it has no contacting parts but a teflon strip on the rotors(so very little friction)
I wonder where the heat is coming from then?Ambient is lets say 60 degrees and the intake air is probably 120degrees.Must be the heat from the headers 2 feet away.

just kidding!
or maybe its from THE COMPRESSING OF THE AIR!

any way this is way off from my original post,oh well nothing like a heated discussion