Thoughts on E85 - Snowmobile Forum: Your #1 Snowmobile Forum

midgy_56 · 12-13-2006, 05:24 PM

I'm currently going to college at one of the school's that compete in the SAE Clean Snowmobile Challenge (if you aren't sure what it's about, you can check it out Clean Snowmobile Challenge). For the 2008 competition, they are requiring that all snowmobiles in the competition that use fuel will have to either use E85 fuel with the option of choosing diesel if the school feels up to the challenge. I just thought I would see how actual snowmobilers feel about snowmobiles that run on E85. Do you think its a good idea? Would you buy one? those types of things.

mmrosshere · 12-13-2006, 05:47 PM

Sorry. Could you explain what E85 actualy is.

SawBlade · 12-13-2006, 05:57 PM

biofuel. mixture of corn juice and lemons i think.

midgy_56 · 12-13-2006, 05:58 PM

I'm sorry i forgot to explain, there are currently two types of gas; E10, normal gas that all snowmobiles currently run on and contains 10% ethanol (most cars run on this too), and then there is E85 which contains 85% ethanol (usually made from corn). You may have heard the term flex fuel in the automotive world which would allow a car to run on both fuels. Main differences come to cost, fuel economy, power, and exhaust emissions.
Benifits of E10: lower engine cost, better fuel economy, better emissions.
Benifits of E85: more power, lower per gallon price (currently)

Paintman · 12-13-2006, 06:26 PM

I would use E85 in my sled, if I could find it

BRPforlife · 12-13-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midgy_56

Main differences come to cost, fuel economy, power, and exhaust emissions.

Ethanol is also renewable.

As long as I get whiplash when I pin the throttle I don't give a damn what it's running on!

RMK 600 · 12-13-2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRPforlife

Ethanol is also renewable.

As long as I get whiplash when I pin the throttle I don't give a damn what it's running on!

I agree if my sled performs the same and if fuel is cheaper who cares what it burns.

IndianRvrShiver · 12-13-2006, 06:39 PM

E85 is ~40% less efficient than gasoline. That is, you will need about 1.4 gallons of E85 to do the same work as 1 gallon of gas. This equates to about 40% less miles per tankful of fuel, as well. Also, not positive on this (since most of my experience is with methanol), but ethanol does not readily ignite at extreme cold temps....primary reason the mix includes 15% gasoline. Fuel system components will need to be redesigned to withstand the corrosive effects of alcohol. Carb float bowls & fuel pumps will be most affected.
Good luck with the project!! Which school??

upersleder · 12-13-2006, 06:52 PM

i would rather stick with regualr gasoline, i would prefer to use diesel befor E85. at least with diesel you will be clean, make more power AND get better fuel mileage. if i were you i would be steering your class twards a small diesel, being in the cleen challenge you could most likely have the engine donated by one of the manufacturers. i was at an auction a couple months ago, seen two small diesel engines for sale, they were from germany i believe. can maybe start looking in the power generating family to get a light small one that could be used.

jagermiester · 12-13-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndianRvrShiver

E85 is ~40% less efficient than gasoline. That is, you will need about 1.4 gallons of E85 to do the same work as 1 gallon of gas. This equates to about 40% less miles per tankful of fuel, as well. Also, not positive on this (since most of my experience is with methanol), but ethanol does not readily ignite at extreme cold temps....primary reason the mix includes 15% gasoline. Fuel system components will need to be redesigned to withstand the corrosive effects of alcohol. Carb float bowls & fuel pumps will be most affected.
Good luck with the project!! Which school??

I think you called it right IRS. To efficiently and effectively use it you would have to for the most part convert specific components to stainless for the corrosion. Also, I would think it would require jetting changes due to the difference in flash point, plus the more dense mixture.

SSnthe10s · 12-13-2006, 07:17 PM

lots of hype going on with E85 in the drag racing world too. Technically it is 112 octane or somthing like that. But that catch is like IRS said you have to burn about twice as much of it for it to work. We are loving this idea for the SS here, Its gunna love the Alky in the high boost application. maybe we can put down close the the 1k RWHP mark we are planning on with it. Speakin of wich update vids of the SS are comming soon. Its under the knife right now getting fitted with its new EFI system.

midgy_56 · 12-13-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndianRvrShiver

Good luck with the project!! Which school??

Thanks, I'm going to UW-Madison.
Your right on the money, hence the higher initial engine cost. Not sure on exact cost for a snowmobile but I believe it's about a $2,000 option in cars (don't quote me on that). The other problem is availability of E85 right now.

upersleder, as far as diesel goes, this is something we seriously considerd, however it's just not practical with the time and money we have to spend, plus the scoring of the competition makes it hard. Diesel engine would be heavy and hard to make it run good under the conditions required by a snowmobile. It's a very good chance you will see one or two diesel snowmobiles at the competition within the next couple of years though.

Thanks for the great comments and if you have any questions about the competition or what we've done as a team, i would be happy to try to answer them.

jagermiester · 12-13-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midgy_56

if you have any questions about the competition or what we've done as a team, i would be happy to try to answer them.

Maybe some progressive pics and a couple updates from time to time would be interesting??

ac bigbore · 12-13-2006, 07:36 PM

Back in the mid 70's I either read in a snomo mag or saw at
a race a sled with an odd setup of 5 carbs on one manifold going to one or two cylinders. The reason for all the little carbs one one manifold was to increase the velocity of the air
in the carbs to adequately vaporize the alcohol. The stuff apparently doesn't vaporize very well at low temps. An alcohol sled would probably have to be a very high pressure
fuel injection model to work well.

clif12345 · 12-13-2006, 09:16 PM

better check your facts it is not 40% less it is 20% less energy per gallon compared to gasoline. The problem with E85 right now is the price of ethanol. Needs to be 20% less cost but it is not because of demand and not enough supply

jagermiester · 12-13-2006, 09:50 PM

Ethanol plants are going in around here like mad. One is within 30 miles of me and three more proposed in same radius. My brother is working on the first one to go into Ohio and it's a big one. 160 acres!!!