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Old 01-25-2006, 01:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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twin VS triple

I was at a shop yesterday getting something welded and the older guy was asking about my sled and I told him it was a 800 triple. Now I try and be respectful and listen to my elders as it were, but I was having a hard time taking this info without some reservation.
He tells me that the triples just arent really any good for racing, that they dont develope enought torque down low, and that they just cant win against the twins. Without sounding too cocky I ask him how that can be, and please explain it to me. He goes into how he was selling and working on bombs long ago and he did lots of field research on why they were getting beaten all the time, and what problems they were having. He said they were built incorrectly, and the middle cylinder took so much heat, and the crank took so much abuse, that they would twist in the case and then throw out the bearing, resulting in engine failure. He reported this all back to Bomb and they pulled the motors. Well I said ya know, they are all liquid cooled now. He said they only started reselling them when they switched to liquid cooled. So then he still insists that the even with the new technology, the twins will still beat the triples all the time. I asked, when was the last time he actually went out and watched some races and he said it had been awhile.
Now, I have heard this twin vs more arguement before. I ride metric bikes and always a 4 cylinder. The harley guys try in vain to convince me of this "big torque" arguement, and I therefore must hand them a handsome ass spanking eash and every time.
So, which has the upper hand here? Same cc or near-to, which will pull out? Is it a 50/50 chance? I know clutching and studding play a serious part, but all evils being even, will a triple prevail or is the mighty torque going to step up?
The guys nice and all, but I'd like to bring him some solid numbers that he can look at and understand. Being of the engineering type, he darn sure aint gonna take my word for it.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The triples have more mid range torque, and a bit more on the top end. A good example is my dads buddy has a 96' formula z 583 (twin). I have a 1996 formula 3 600 triple. Right from a dead stop he just pulls away, then I catch up and start to just pull away from him. Comming out of a corner with some speed, I can pull away from him. On the lake, I have some top end over him, but mine was studded and his was not. Basically, they perform REALLY similiar to each other. If I had my choice, I would go with the twin. We went the exact same distance and he burnt between 1/4 and half a tank, and I burnt 3/4 of a tank. BUT, if I was a racer, I'd like to have the midrange torque of a triple. I guess a lot of it depends on your driving style too.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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i can beat my friends xlt 580, bone stock, with my 583. my mach has 1 more tooth on the top gear than most 583s and it was punched out to around 610cc and it is studded but we were racing on fairly loose snow.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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maybe by "racing" he meant "short distance drag"...As far as performance if a triple is dialed in right and all evils being equal it's been my experience the triple will definitely outperform over the larger powerband. It just seems like you have to be a mechanic to be able to own a triple and keep it tweaked right. I agree with him on the durability issues, (can't count how many xlts I've seen blow engines) but newer technology will probably eliminate most of those problems. And the reason it seems most makers are sticking with the twins is they're close in performance but they need a lot less tweaking to keep them runnin right. Remember the first year the polaris xlt came out? Seems like they were spanking everything (granted they all self-destructed shortly after). I'd have to see some test results and some actual specs before I believe a well adjusted triple will fall to a comparable twin. But that's just my experience.
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Old 01-25-2006, 02:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Every year here in Newfoundland we have a race called "Race on the rock" and guess what always wins king of the hill?An old MachZ,Storm...wins every year.Those triples are hard to beat when they are dialed in.
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Old 01-25-2006, 05:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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the higher displacment will almost always win and if its closer displacement itll be fairly even but those twins do put out a lot of low end torque and the triples have a bit more top end
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Old 01-25-2006, 06:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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IAM SURE THE TRIPLE WILL OUT RUN A TWIN,but it all comes down to location .Playing off trail,with friends,i always thought the twins did better,and were snappyer,less prone to overheating.Twisty turny trailriding the lighter twins corner and accelerate off sharp corners better.STRAIGHT trails open areas ,the triple dominates.Personally give me a twin,its all about fuel mileage,its getting expensive to ride.I love the snappy two stroke,but this gas issue is gonna put me in a four stroke ,or something a little cheaper to run.
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Old 01-25-2006, 06:32 PM   #8 (permalink)
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higher displacement will win if a triple 600 races a twin 800 the 800 will kick the 600s @$$ use your head
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Old 01-25-2006, 07:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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A couple of you got it.

800 twin vs 800 triple, or 700 or 600. The point being the same ccs, but different engine configuration.

Yep and 800 will usually beet a 600, as they say theres no replacement for displacement. But even up engine size and all other factors being equal, the advantage falls to... I still say the triple.

Of course I have seen a 440 that kicked everthing else on the ice's butt, but that is an entirely another story.

I am gonna go check out the "factory" statistics and see how they compare.
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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theres a reason why my lake sled is a tripple.

ive never lost to a 600 carbureted twin before, ive even beaten 700 twins. 700 triples, i dont stand a chance.

but it takes a lot of work and patience to get all 3 cylinders tuned correctly. it involves having every carb using different configs.

for the average joe, a twin is 3x easier to tune and race and twins are sooo much lighter. thats why i have both
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Mst twins I've seen get the jump off the start, then it's triple all the way after that.
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I believe that if I were to line up with say an XC600 against my Triumph 600 trip, the twin would kick the crap out of me in a short run. On a long run, I believe I would take it.
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm not a skidoo guy, but I bet the newer twin cylinder mach-z would beat most of the tripples that it met up with on the lake.
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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those twin 1000s are runin mother fuc_ers
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
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But now we have switched ccs, also, arent the new 1000s 4 stroke? Either way, I wouldnt refuse one!
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The Ski Doo Mach Z has a 1000cc 2 stroke SDI twin. SWEEEETTT!!!
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Here is my opinion on it, i have a 1999 formula 3 800, last winter i raced a brand new 09 ski doo 800r, i had a single pipe on at the time, stock clutch, 96 studs, he has stuck everything, excet a can on the exhaust and 88 studs....we raced for probably 1 mile, the first 300 feet he was ahead by probably 5 sled lengths, his sled is also probably 100 pounds lighter and has 150 hp against my 140, at the 1/4 mile i was catching slowly, 1/2 mile about even, 3/4 mile i was about 2 lengths ahead, and at the 1 mile i was gone. his digital gauges showed 119 mph for him, i looked down at one point and seen over 120 but didnt look to see where abuts after it......i dont care what anyone says, triples have better top end. a man i no that past away this summer new just about everything about ski doo, drove a mach z 1000, and his son was who i was racing " triples have the legs , no question ", his exact words, also a single can builds more pressure and can give u more top end the triple pipes, which i just learned , ...this is my thoughts on this, but triples are by far to me alot stronger on the top then a twin, triples dont have bottom end where twins do, but in a long race a triple has it
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:18 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Triple will win ! The reason is it accelerates much faster! There is a power stroke every 120 deg of rev, instead of 180! The larger pistons of a twin will give more torque, but with more transfer ports the triple will out pull a twin EVERY TIME! Any one want to witness this, I will be at Little St Germain lake for the radar run the middle of Jan! I will have both of my BIG Cats a twin and a triple 800! The twin is all tricked up and the triple is just piped! I know the ZRT will do 100 mph in 500 feet!
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kccats View Post
Triple will win ! The reason is it accelerates much faster! There is a power stroke every 120 deg of rev, instead of 180! The larger pistons of a twin will give more torque, but with more transfer ports the triple will out pull a twin EVERY TIME! Any one want to witness this, I will be at Little St Germain lake for the radar run the middle of Jan! I will have both of my BIG Cats a twin and a triple 800! The twin is all tricked up and the triple is just piped! I know the ZRT will do 100 mph in 500 feet!
kccats, you are right in every respect. The big thing that most people don't have a clue about is that there are more transfer ports on a triple than a twin of equal displacement. Moving the air through the engine quickly is the secret to horsepower. I laugh whenever I hear the old"twins have more low end power" adage. If you want to race to win you better have your clutching set to run the engine at the horsepower peak, forget about any low speed torque the engine may produce.
Jerry
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:58 AM   #20 (permalink)
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kccats, you are right in every respect. The big thing that most people don't have a clue about is that there are more transfer ports on a triple than a twin of equal displacement. Moving the air through the engine quickly is the secret to horsepower. I laugh whenever I hear the old"twins have more low end power" adage. If you want to race to win you better have your clutching set to run the engine at the horsepower peak, forget about any low speed torque the engine may produce.
Jerry
Well yes it does have alot to do with clutching, and even more to do with the weight in most sleds, the twins are usually almost 99% of the time lighter the a triple,, but for a true example of twin having more low end, take a 2005 mach z 1000 twin, against a mach z with a big bore kit, 1100 cc to be exact, also a triple, ive seen it happen, the 1000 gets the holeshot everytime, but as soon as the get going off goes the triple, quicker torque = faster accel. , triples build torque slower but have more of it in the end.
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