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Old 01-23-2009, 12:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Turbocharging a 2 stroke?

This is something I have been intrested in for a while. A few internet searches have seemed to provide little information if any. You can find a couple that are done but I can't find any good information on how they did it. I'm looking to build it for low cost. I don't want to buy a $3,000.00 aerocharger because that almost seems pointless. Ebay is full of good used turbos for less than 100 bucks. I've seen intercoolers there also as low as $50.00. I think if someone came up with a system that worked and it was somthing that could be accomplished in your garage it would be worth it. Can you imagine putting a small turbo on an older sled that you already have and gain 20,30 even 50 more h.p. I have a older phazer with a polaris engine that I installed a couple years ago. It ran well but was more of just a backyard toy. I didn't build it to ride on a long trip it was just something to play with. After having it together for awhile I installed a turbo that I had from a 6.5L chevy diesel. After a bunch of time I did get it to work but basically the turbo was so huge it took forever to spool up and didn't work that well. It definatly made more power but it was very hard to control. I think a turbo off of maybe a small 4cyl. car may be a better choice. I want to find all the info I can before I go back into it. Any tips or personal experience would be greatly appreciated. I know it can be done it's just finding the right way to do it.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Humm ive thought about this too didnt do any research but i think i read somthing about the huge diferance between 2 and 4 cycle engines and it is almost impossible ot turba a 2 cycle i could be wrong i think it would be really cool to do it to i just dont know. I Uguess you would have to make your own exhaust manifold, piping, need a custom intake manifold, and i wouldnt even know where to start on the timing, i guess you could advance is a shit ton or retard which ever. I think you wouldnt even need an intercooler if you didnt have the room but it would ad a couple hp if you did have one. Let us know if you find anything.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:23 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Trust me you can turbocharge a 2 stroke. There is alot to know before you try it but it can be done. I found a guy by the name of Bob Eliezer on the alaska 4x4 network a couple years ago. He provided me with a ton of info when I put my first setup together. Problem is he doesn't mess with that stuff anymore. He also used a aerocharger which I would like to use something alot cheaper and more readily available. If I can figure out how to post the emails he sent me I will. It's pretty intresting to read. He had turbocharged a 488 phazer and then later built a 650 phazer. If I remember correctly he was making like 130 horse with it. It's nothing now compaired to the later model sleds but if you had an old phazer and could turbocharge it for $300.00 or so and have a little fun I thinks it's gotta be worth it.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I would advise using a turbo off on an 03 dodge srt 4 they are small and get to max spool very fast
how would you tune it tho? ive been thinking about trying this on one of my older sleds
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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There are alot of problems with tuning. Along with alot of problems with installing the setup. One thing I never came up with is how to circulate the oil in the turbo. That thing gets hot. Aside from that you have to run and electric pump which means running a battery. You need a fuel regulator with a boost reference so as pressure goes up so does fuel. Timing needs to be adjusted. Bob looked into alot of this stuff long before I did and it saved me a ton of time. I can't figure out how to post the information he sent me but if you want I can email what I have. Let me know.
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:17 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Guys if it were only just that simple! Even at $3000 everyone would have one! The reasonthe kits are $6000 is there is alot that has to go into it! For example how did you cool that 6.5 turbo!!! Or Oil it! Carberation might be the biggest obstical?
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Turbo Phazer History.doc

Turbocharging a 2 stroke?-1st-fuel-system.jpg

Turbocharging a 2 stroke?-1st-version-fuel-system.jpg

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Turbocharging a 2 stroke?-turbo-cover.jpgTurbo Phazer History.doc

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ID:	9633Carberation was actually the easier than you think. I had a pressure regulator with a boost reference port that was plumbed to the air box. As pressure would come up in the box the carbs would get more fuel. The problem was the turbo took so long to spool up it just wouldn't work correctly. I am pretty sure the fuel system was fine the problem was the turbo. I should have hunted out something smaller. The 6.5L turbo was laying in the shop so I tried it with that. I knew oiling would be a problem so I didn't waste any time with that. I wanted to see if I could get it to work first. I figured if would work I would come up with a oil pump and maybe a oil cooler and resevoir system. I'm glad I didn't go through the trouble. To run it the little bit that we did I made a block off plate and gasket for the bottom where the oil would drain back to the pan and a pipe plug for the top where there pressure line went. I filled the cavity with a synthetic gear lube that I had. As far as cooling it I didn't. I had the turbo mounted down low in the sled near where the exhaust comes out of the bottom. It was mounted on the end of the pipe after the expansion chamber. I would like to say heat wouldn't be a problem but I can't. It doesn't seem that it got that hot or any hotter than the exhaust but than again it wasn't really working either. I know if I used the right turbo it would have worked. I tried to use stuff I had lying around and I should have spent more time researching it. I am still trying to post all the info I have from a guy that turbocharged his Phazer. If nothing else it's pretty good reading. I should have listened to him to begin with. He told me right away that my turbo was going to be to big but I didn't listen. Anyway hopefully I can get what I have posted. In the mean time I'm researching water cooled turbo's. It seems they have been coming pretty common now.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I tried for awile to dowload everything I have but it doesn't want to work for me. Any intrest just PM me your email address and I will send it that way.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
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If you want a smaller turbo go to the "tuner" web-sites. They have turbos for all the japaneze 4 cylinders and some companies have even created a turbo for the Geo Metro which has a little tiny 3 cylinder engine. Basically, you want to find a turbo that was made for an engine of the same displacement as the engine you will be putting it on. If you can't find exactly the same size (which would be difficult) you want to get the closest one you can. It would be better to have the turbo for a smaller engine that what you will be using because a two-stroke doesn't have the natural torque that a 4-stroke does so it will automatically have more turbo-lag (time it takes to spool up).

Don't worry about the intercooler, all that does is drop the temp of the incoming air. If you have a small turbo running on an engine upwards of 5000 RPM and the air intake system isn't very long then the air won't have time to heat up anyway. Remember, an intercooler won't cool it past the outside air temp unless it's using an actual refridgerant and if you use that type you will be causing so much drag for the compressor and so much added weight that you will lose more power than you gain.

Good luck and remember, don't do this to a sled that you can't easily get new parts for. You will blow out alot of gaskets, and seals and quite likely will burn up a piston or two getting all the kinks worked out.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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wouldn't it be easyer if you found an EFI throttle body for a sled similar in cc and program it? because doesn't the fuel injected stuff have a sensor that adjusts the amount of fuel based on air flow? I don't know much about this stuff but I figured I might spur an idea although you have probably already thought of this.
I was checking out turbochargers once for my car and there are differen't stages you can get too. the smaller turbos might have trouble supplying a good pressure at higher rpm when the engine is sucking more.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:48 AM   #11 (permalink)
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No air flow on a sled and till recently no O2 sensor either!
It just seems to be so much work! I'm very interested, but see so many problems! I no that there are a couple of makers out there that are doing it and they are using the new EFI sleds and are making some hp but are like $6000! It seems that a transplant would make more sence! I can make 220 hp out of a twin and 400 or more out of a triple! Even at best what kinda numbers are you looking at with the turbo? 200???
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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There's a reason why there is no factory built turbo 2 stroke engines - it doesn't work. It may work on 2S diesel engines - but that's a whole different animal.

A two stroke engine uses crankcase pressure to "blow" the fuel/air mixture into the combustion chamber. When the piston goes up, low pressure is created in the crankcase which sucks air through the carbs and into the crankcase. Then, as the piston starts coming down, airflow into the crankcase is shut off. This is usually done with reed valves in snowmobiles. This puts high pressure in the crankcase, and when the piston gets low enough to open the ports, the charge in the crankcase gets blown into the combustion chamber - which also blows the previous charge (which is now exhaust) out the exhaust pipe. Port timing is crucial here, because you want the piston coming up and shutting off the exhaust port when all of the exhaust leaves the combustion chamber, but before the fresh charge starts leaving.

Now, if you add a turbo to a reed valve engine, the reed will not be allowed to close when the piston starts coming down. You will have much higher pressure in the crank case when the intake port opens. The pressure will immediately blow all the exhaust out of the combustion chamber and start blowing alot of fuel down the exhaust pipe before the exhaust port closes.

You may get a little increase in performance since all of the spent exhaust gasses will be out of the combustion chamber, but it will be at the cost of alot of wasted fuel. You'd be better of increasing your port sized and maybe changing your port timing.

If you are not running a reed valve engine and have a rotating crankshaft valve, you will see absolutely no difference with a turbo - other than the added weight and complexity.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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yeah, thats's what I thought LT grey. the boost would actually try and stop the piston from coming back down in the bore. it just doesn't make sense
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:25 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Check this web-site:
Dirt Bike News - 2004 Bonneville Speed Week - Dirt Rider Magazine

It begins with this paragraph:

Quote:
You've been hearing about our land speed record assault and our fleet of unique-looking Hondas for several months. Now, we can finally show you the world-fastest turbo 125cc two-stroke built by Rod Falkner of Dumonde Tech. It features and IHI turbo and a variety of exotic custom-built hardware.
It's not easy to make a 2-stroke work with a turbo but it can be done and the horsepower gains can be huge. Mercury Marine is having the same company (IHI Turbo) supply the turbos for their 2-stroke turbo outboard that is in the testing stages right now. If it ever hits the market it will be the first ever 2-stroke outboard motor with a turbo, so far the testing has been positive.

I think they are also having the IHI people supply a turbo for the 4-stroke Verado model. The Verado has been out for a while and is destroying all the performance numbers for outboard engines.
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Last edited by Thumperdisney; 01-29-2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Needed to correct info regarding the Verado
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'll give you that they started with a 2S engine. But what they are running in Bonnneville is not exactly a 2S. That's some kind of a 2/4 stroke hybrid.

If you want to set a world speed record in a 125cc class, you can put a turbo (and a bunch of other stuff) on a 2 stroke engine and make it develop enough power to break that record. But, it's going to be hugely expensive and complicated. It's not something some is going to do to a snowmobile in their garage.

I got a buddy who's an engineer at Mercury Marine. I'm going to have to ask him about that turbo 2S. I'd love to see how they plan on doing it.
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I've done some looking around. Apparently the 521 Ski Doo engine has a rotary valve for the intake and exhaust.

If you have actual valves (like on 2S deisels) you can install a turbo - and maybe get some benefits.

Have a look at this guy:

Turbo Sled
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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havent any of you ever heard of Chris Burandt all he runs is turbo'd arctic cat m series sleds which are 2-strokes. they are insaine!!!
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
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This a year old thread bro, none of these people come on here anymore
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:45 PM   #19 (permalink)
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very ture lol sorry bout that
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm still here! And Yes a turbo 2 strokes is VERY possible and is done ALOT out west! The question I had was how much HP could you make out of like a 600cc twin! Because a 600 twin with a turbo would be as heavy as a 100-1800cc triple! And they would make like 220hp all the way to 450HP!
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